Re: 政治能問嗎
看板CultureShock (文化衝擊)作者iambeetle (beetle)時間19年前 (2006/06/29 00:23)推噓42(49推 7噓 85→)留言141則, 29人參與討論串10/14 (看更多)
I assume that you prefer me to reply you in English, so I would it.
我假設你想要我用英文回復你，我可以。
But I notice that there might be some people don't feel comfortable
但是我知道可能有一部分人不太適應讀一大篇英文，
reading a whole brunch of English.
Therefore I will make it into Chinese as well.
所以我也會把它翻譯稱中文， 這樣也比較清楚一點。
Just for the sake of clearness.
------------------------
At first, I was quite shock that how could you be so cocky and absolute.
剛開始，我很驚訝你為甚麼可以這麼自大和絕對化自己想法。
However, I read it again and I think I know the reason why.
但是我又讀了一邊以後，我覺得我知道為甚麼了。
You are either heavily brianwashed, or you knows basically nothing.
你要不然是完全被洗腦了，就是根本甚麼都不知道。
I am not gonna argure with you based on hisotry, since I have said that
history is not accurate.
我不會跟你理論歷史，因為我已經說過歷史其實本來就不準確。
However, I would like to talk about it based on your logic.
但是我會將你的邏輯來討論。
※ 引述《lerudit (l'Erudit)》之銘言：
: ※ 引述《iambeetle (beetle)》之銘言：
: : 先說好了。。。我是中國人，就是“大陸人”，家鄉是在廣東。。。
: : 但是已經到Canada三年多了。。。
: : 我同意說中國政府一直有對中國人民洗腦說台灣是中國的一部分，
: : 而且很大部分中國人也認為台灣“回歸”是早晚的事情。。。
: : 我覺得這個真的很難說清楚，不是嗎。。？
: Are you going to talk about the history or the future?
: It is not very difficult to clarify it.
It's very hard to clarfy it, i would say.
其實，我會說，歷史是很難被認證的。
Not only the history of P.R.China and Taiwan, but also the world history,
has always been argued over decades.
不只是中國和台灣的歷史，就連世界歷史，這麼久以來一直被爭論著。
I was surprised that it seems so easy to solve to you.
我很驚訝你會覺得對於歷史問題這麼容易就可以解決。
Then what are those historians and professors doing for such a long time?
slacking off? (lol)
如果是這樣，那麼這麼久以來，這麼多的歷史學家和教授都在做些甚麼？
偷懶嗎？ （笑）
: In the past, for most of the time, Taiwan has been independently existant
: in the world.
: There were Dutch, Koxinga, Chin, Japanese and Chiang ever controlling Taiwan.
: However, only the last two can fully control most of Taiwan.
: (Remember, 2/3 of Taiwan is mountains. The first reliable sea level
: determination was by Japanese.)
: Chinese did build something in Taiwan, such as railway; however, at the same
: time, they were removing railway off from their country.
: Everybody knows Taiwan was ceded to Japan in 1895.
: I don't like Chinese always arguing for price or bargain;
: I don't like Chinese always leaving rubbish everywhere;
: If you Chinese do want to buy something, pay for it or go away.
: If you Chinese do decide to give up something, don't go to ask it back someday.
: Else, don't give up then.
: What do you think we Taiwanese are?
Are you dissing Chinese people here? Where is your hatred from?
你現在是在針對中國百姓嗎？你對中國普通百姓的憎恨是怎麼來的？
What is wrong with bargaining? That is a part of culture.
講價有甚麼不好的？這甚至是文化的一部分。
And your stereotype is very bad. There are clean and beatiful cities in China.
你對中國的印象真的很差，雖然我不知道是哪裡來的。
中國也有很多漂亮而且干凈的城市。
If you want to talk about politics, don't blame people.
如果你是要講政府和政治，那就不要把怪罪到百姓人民身上。
: : 因為歷史這東西，本來就很有偏見，
: : 兩個政府都盡量把歷史修改到有利於自己的一邊，
: : 所以我個人是完全不相信歷史。。。
: Yes, the history has been interpreted very differently..
: It is not difficult to clarify, else they won't be able to do any interpreting.
: If you are talking about 'believe' or 'not believe', then we are at different
: level.
: I would talk about 'consideration', 'evidences' and 'research'.
: I may still believe or not believe something, but would think of the reasons.
Regarding to what you said above,
對於你上面所說的，
I think you have made a big mistake here.
我覺得你犯了一個大錯誤。
The fact that History can be interpreted doesn't mean that history
can be interpreted correctly.
歷史可以被理解這事實並不代錶歷史一定可以被 正確 理解。
The history itself is ambiguous, if you force to interprete it one-way only,
there must be bias inyour interpretation.
歷史本來就是很多面化和很模糊（不好意思我真的不知道怎麼翻譯ambiguous)
，如果你硬是要單一化的理解歷史，那你的理解一定會有偏見。
And I don't understand that you said you would talk about "considerations",
"evidance" and "research", because you have not.
我不明白你為甚麼說你會講"considerations", "evidance" 和 "research"，
因為很明顯你並沒有。
And if you have done your research, I am sure that you won't get so cocky
anymore. Because there are a lot of sides and bias in the source.
It overwhelms you.
如果你有做研究的話，那我敢保證你不會再這麼自大。 因為當你在找資料的時候，
你會發現有很多不同的版本和偏見，立場。 你根本不能應付過來。
: : 對於台灣和中國到底是甚麼關係，我也是中立。
: : 完全沒有偏任何一邊，我覺得只要兩邊不要爭，不要有矛盾，只要結果是好的就好了。
: : 我在vancouver有很多台灣朋友，除非是我最親的朋友，我都很少跟他們談到政治問題，
: : 因為這些東西，既然已經被洗腦了，那就不是一下子可以說服的。。。
: : 我唯一覺得不爽的是美國一直在兩岸關係裡面亂弄，所以可以在裡面賺到錢。。。
: : 我倒是覺得這樣太小人了。。。
: I suggest you just go away and talk to your president then.
: If he agrees to give up to invade Taiwan or any attacks, we will not have
: to buy any weapons from the US.
: Mr Chinese, we are quite happily living here. If there is any difficulty,
: that is basically by you, or your government.
First of all, I don't like your words "invade" and "attacks",
首先，我很不喜歡你的字眼“侵略”和“攻擊”，
because we have not invaded or attacked Taiwan.
因為我們並沒有“侵略”或“攻擊”台灣。
The fact is we even suggest peace. Also, at least until now,
we haven't started a war.
我們甚至提倡和平，並且到現在為之，我們並沒有發起戰爭。
But I would like to ask you one question.
但是我想問你一個問題，
Althought Taiwan has bought weapons from the US, do you think those weapon
can protect you? Are they even competitive?
就算台灣有跟美國買武器，你覺得它們真的有用嗎？真的能招架得住？
The US sells you weapons for money.
As long as they gets money, they are happy doing it.
美國是為了賺錢才賣給你武器。 只要它們能轉到錢，它們就開心了。
: : 但是有一點我想說啦，
: : 我記得我以前的教科書，都以“同胞”稱做台灣是沒有錯，
: : 我覺得這算是善意吧。。。
: No. If I ask a question:
: Do you call 'my dearest' to every girl?
: Then, do you think they will feel you are friendly if you do that?
: Get your brain geared up, please, Mr Chinese.
I don't think your example helps you.
我並不覺得你得例子有任何用處。
It makes non-sense.
這個例子根本就不是在說同樣的東西， 事實上，這例子我根本不能理解。
Do we call "my dearest" to every girl? No, we don't.
我們真的都叫女生“my dearest”嗎？根本不是。
By the way, I have a name for you to call. No need to call me "Mr. Chinese"
順便說一下，我有名字，你不用一直叫我“Mr. Chinese”.
: : 但是有時候我上PTT看到很多取笑大陸人的東西。。。
: : 心裡面是有點不舒服，因為感覺有些人好像有點討厭大陸人。。。
: : 而且裡面取笑的都很多是stereotype，我看了都覺得很無裡頭。。。
: : 我心裡面是希望這都是小部分人吧。。。。
: : 因為我的台灣朋友們都對我好好，而且他們都會說，“你感覺不像大陸人耶”
: : 我覺得這可能是台灣人對大陸人也不怎麼瞭解吧。。。
: : 要是真能象交朋友一樣了解對方的話，其實差異，也不會很多。
: : 如果是錯，都是政府的錯，普通百姓是無辜的吧。。。
: If you are governed by foreigner, such as japanese or whatever, I will accept
: this excuse. Unfortunately, you are governed by Chinese government, which is
: even called 'People's Government'.
: Which government else is 'more of people' than yours?
: You got many political parties meeting every year or every day in so grand
: hall, and never heard they are arguing for anything. Everything agreed 99%.
: How can we believe that everything is due to the government but not the people.
: By the way, if you can take off the 'People' on the title, and go to argue
: or protesst in your parliament, I will believe what you said. OK?
: I am not laughing at you.
: Democracy is a very good status, but you can not get it for free.
: Do something for your own country, for your neighbour's sakes.
Chinese people supports the government when it is doing the right thing.
中國人民在中國政府做正確的事情的時候，就支持中國政府。
Till now, for the most of the part, Chinese government is helping the
到現在為之，中國政府的確在幫助中國發展，所以我們支持。
country to develop. Therefore we support it.
Over 85% of people support the current goverment in China.
超過百分之85的人民支持自己的政府。
Chinese government fulfills Chinese people's demand.
中國政府的確實現了很多中國人民的目標。
What about your government?
If you are so happy about your government, answer the question.
如果你是這麼支持自己的政府，那你告訴我，
What is the percentage that people support the curent govenment?
台灣現任政府民意指數多少？
After all, I am not saying Chinese government always do the right thing.
但是，說到底，我並不是在說中國政府一直都是很正確的。
There are evil sides of the government too. Just like any other government.
中國政府也有做一些不好的事情，就像所有國家的政府一樣。
But I have a piece of advice for you.
但是我想要給你一個建議，
Put down your pride. Stop being so cocky, you will learn more.
收起你的驕傲和自大心。 要是你謙虛一點，你可以學到更多東西。
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